I've been noticing this for years now but it's really accelerated over the last several weeks. This is from the "things I think I think" department:
Traits that make someone attractive to a MAG/crew/group/team/club/whatever are the exact same traits that make them terrible candidates.
I'll explain.
I can't speak for all groups, clearly, but having been a part of more than a couple serious bug-out-type groups over the last decade-and-a-half, groups are looking for a few important traits:
- Probably already a prepper
- Trustworthy, however you define and measure that
- Some level of preparedness already in place (x number of months of food storage, for example)
- Other direct and relevant skills that can contribute to a group like gardening experience, hunting, firearms experience, bushcraft, camping, physical fitness, yada yada yada
In my experience, the people that fit the above almost ALL already are squared away and will never leave their homes to bug-out with other people. I've met quite a few who SAY they will, but when push-comes-to-shove, that is an *extremely* rare trait.
If a person just will not leave their home to bug out with my group, I don't want to spend a metric poop-ton of time onboarding them. I'd much rather them say up front "hey, let's be friends and compare notes... but I'm never leaving home, just FYI."
Or, since I'm the common denominator in all of my experiences, it's quite possible it's me. :)
Has anyone else noticed this?
The flip side I've noticed is that the people who are NOT squared away, those who have zero in-place preparedness, are the ones asking if they can move in on Monday lol.
for me it was not finding a good MAG but finding one that would accept a newcomer i eventually gave up. and yes there are MAGS that have no bugout plan but no defense put in place for them to bugin.
I agree that too many MAGs don't have adequate plans for much of anything. So did you find a MAG that you're happy with?
@John Hart nope i did find a group of groups at one point but it fell apart for various reasons....so its just me and my elderly mother plus MAYBE my sister and her family...
@wally I hope it all works out for you. It's all part of His plan. Where do you live?
at this stage of the game; most were not prepared for the life we are in now and will not be for how life is next. As a leader you must let others do the on-boarding for you . you have the bigger picture to worry about. delegate.
- My situation I have to join a group or lead my own. We isolate now because of my job so its on me and I have trained my son and wife. Joining a group: they have to learn my skills and trust and forming my own is based on trust and risk assessment. If you are the lead then make a plan , delegate to others and stay focused on the big picture ( get the job done) .
Can you explain what you mean by let others do the onboarding for you? That works if you have 20+ in your group. But if you're building from nothing, I don't know how that is possible. I also don't really follow how this fits into the discussion. I think I need more coffee.
Morning John; if im off topic then thats my fault and not yours. I am building from nothing ( a group of 3 my family) Letting others = delegate to those that are in your group that know that area better or that you have trained lead an area: My wife knows how to garden/can/ medical( a dr) so she has more data to teach/ lead or help others in those area. Me i know medical been through a crap ton of training and combat so I know what to do also but . to teach I let her lead the areas. My skills are led to teach in other areas. My son as his areas that I am drilling him in that I want him to lead all while I focus on the bigger picture.
Ok, I thought by "onboarding," you meant bringing new members into your group. Having functional leaders is good. But my original point was that recruiting people who have the skills and attitude you want makes them much less likely that they'll bug out with your group, defeating the entire purpose. The Great MAG Paradox.
brother ;; sometimes they will not have the skills that you need. You have to except people for where they are and who they are and then get them train them . I.E> . leading a new soul to god: accept them and then teach them what they dont know and help them understand. Its about the love we have for them and the love to do the right thing
My apologies, I have no idea what this has to do with this conversation.
@John Hart I think Mel is on point here. You DO have a paradoxical situation, as you've effectively pointed out. What he's saying, I think, is that to overcome the paradox and move forward, you have to assess potential members for sincerity, even if they're lacking in skills. Try and coach them along as they grow. At best you're gaining an awesome member, at worst you have to cut them loose for failure to progress. I think TJ addressed this in a series of posts early on. Acceptance based in a minimal progression contract and advancement or dismissal based on progress after a period of trial. Referencing pennies, dimes and quarters... pennies being the ones cut loose for failure to achieve.
Just my perception of the situation.
I have encountered a lot of the same, John, especially in central Ohio. A lot of folks that I meet locally who are into preparedness already have their mind made up about their SHTF plan and aren't keen on making plans with "Outsiders"
Nailed it. A strange phenomenon that I've noticed is that a lot of those same people are on here or other prepper websites looking for groups... it's cognitive dissonance, at least for some (or many) people.
I have been a part of several groups. Some very large and requiring dues going to a fund to purchase a retreat. Most every one has failed due to lack of staying on task and their own stated charter or mission. This must be clearly defined in the beginning and leadership needs to make sure everyone stays on track. A six month probationary period is a good idea to see their commitment to the goals.
In addition the core of leadership must not change. People who want to vote on everything will fail. Keep the decisions on par with the stated mission. If your rules and by-laws are well written and understood, little is left to interpretation.
There are great people out there that do not fit with what your teams mission is. Do not try and convince them to join due to a specific skill set they posses that your team needs. Be friends and help each other, but do not recruit them. Many people like this have places to go and folks to be with already. If they join your team for a social outlet, you will be disappointed in the end.
Small and cohesive seems to work much better.
Bill
You said "Many people like this have places to go and folks to be with already." Man, my experience is the exact opposite. My experience is that most people are of the "oh that will never happen" and "if that does happen, I'm going to Jimmy's house because I know he's got guns" mindset. Even in circles like this one. And that's what scares me.
I like the idea of small cohesive units. I would like to see regional affiliations forming among these smaller units. Building bonds and homogenizing beneficial training via quarterly meets for the affiliates. The problem I see is either a lack of interest in any form of unity or possibly fear of being catagorized by the mainstream. I believe we are the mainstream, at least outside of the bigger cities and that our perception is being clouded by the mainstream media depiction of those who don't conform to their particular ideas. Basically, folks with common sense and strong work ethics have been looked down upon and marginalized by city folk for decades and the idiot box (TV) has served to instill doubt.
@Ian McFee been there done that for regional affiliations didn't really work any better than an individual MAG...
As the Movie said "Build it and they will come" ! So be ready, if you fine like minded individuals now great!!! Don't get hung up on joiners. Prepare for GOD/JAH to send the right individuals. They may "wet behind the ears like a newborn calf". However, if God sends them they will be worth a 1000 ateist. Joseph prepared Egypt but God sent his people to him.
If there's a food shortage (and there will be) the "zombies" will follow their noses to your front door. My question (no disrespect intended) is, how can you tell the faithful from the "zombies?" Zombie = one of the horde of unprepared looking to score food and loot.
@Ian McFee That would be my problem we just moved into a new community so I do not have a lot of social connections. I saw my church as a way to connect and when this hit I assumed everyone would pull together. I had around 4/5 acres of my pasture plowed up and am in the process of planting a big garden. Part to feed my own family and livestock but also thinking in terms of helping people locally and from church. Now, I think I have made a huge mistake as there is no real interaction on the church facebook page or to my knowledge anywhere else other than spiritual posts by the pastor. A couple ladies were making masks at one point and may still be doing it but nothing organized. I really had assumed that in a rural community like mine there would be more of a cohesive planning mentality through the church. Honestly, at this point I suspect I might have just set myself up for a really difficult year as most people do not even seem to be planning on planting a garden. I kind of wish I had kept my mouth shut. My urge towards social responsibility seems more self destructive than anything else. I guess people just do not see the long term implications but I swear if one more person says God will provide I might scream. Maybe I just picked the wrong church but right now it looks to me like our society has deteriorated to the point only hitting rock bottom will shake people up enough to get them to think ahead.
@ low tech :: I have had the same mind set. So his will and he will provide.
For the last couple of years, I have been our group's Scouting and Recruiting guru, for lack of a better title. I assumed this work because I felt compelled that human intelligence is the area our group (or any group) can never have enough of. I have arranged meet and greets with acquaintances made online through various prepper groups, and of the 100 that committed to coming, ten showed up, and exactly zero had any potential for admission to the group. Not that our standards were unattainable, just that we wanted newcomers committed to work as hard in preparing as we all have been. We do not view preparing as a hobby. It is our lifestyle. Now as time passes I find myself being more scrutinizing - more so than in years past. I am not interested in new preppers with no skills and no "stuff" to bring to the table. I don't believe we have the luxury of time to bring newbies up to speed, so in deciding that, I have made the pool of potential candidates for our group even smaller. And, as John said in his opening comment, the number of extremely well prepared lone-wolves out there who aren't leaving their homes is the other factor. Those types are actually pretty numerous in this area, being rural and self-reliant being the norm rather than the exception. So, the best we can hope for seems to be making networks among other prepared people/groups, so that when the poo flies, while they may not physically be here at our location, they can be allies.
This is exactly where I'm at. Where in the country are you?
@John Hart I got the notification and you're probably responding to nina9mm. But I'm in southeast Texas, 50 miles from the Gulf of Mexico and 30 miles from Louisiana.
@John Hart we're in rural Wisconsin.
I've resorted to a similar approach of getting to know reliable squared away individuals and trying to build relationships as best I can. Let them know if they need something, they can call on me to help. Many of these are former students in law enforcement and the medical field with a couple of engineers thrown in to keep life interesting. The backbone are veteran's and family. Good luck. I think, in the end, it's going to be those relationships that help you get through.
How many of those people will bug out with or near you?
I'm actually hoping this mistake has been mine alone and not a deep-rooted intellectual dishonesty or hypocritical fallacy within the preparedness community as a whole.
All are within a 20 mile radius, With half a dozen as far away as Beaumont, Houston and Dallas me being their buggout location plus 5 local extended families who are set and close by.
So then the $1M question is "how do you know they will bug out to your place?" I started this by saying many people I've met over the last 15 years have talked a big game about bugging out but won't ever actually do it, ever, for anything. (Edit: typo, sorry... autocorrect from my phone)
I'm also confused why so many of those people want to be in groups in the first place, but that's another issue.
@John Hart maybe they just want the extended safety net of a group, without the bugging out plan? Isnt that possible?
There are several that I have long committed relationships with who are currently serving or veterans and we would do anything for the other. These are strong bonds... they'll be here. The others are family and vets... they're here or near already and I am in the family home...it's already the default go to for at least 30 people.
Well, I can't educate you on that one. But, take a look at your BOL. How many access points are there to cover? How much ground do you have to keep secure? What are your resources? Do you know the people around you? What kind of folks are they? How many long guns can you field if evil intent comes calling (you know, the guys that think they'll just scavenge by force)? Can you depend on your neighbors to help?
You brought up an excellent point Ian. RESOURCES. If one wants a group of 20 people one should have the resources to either supply these people indefinitely or at least have the resources so supply can be made indefinitely. I.e a 5 acre established garden, or 20 shovels, ecxellent soil and thousands of seeds. Or a herd of cows, but at least a couple of cows, land to expand and fencing material... not sure if that makes sense, but I guess if people need to leave their home, they shouldn't be expected to leave it for some 15 acres on some freshly logged mountain with no running water, rock as foundation and maybe a decorative trash heap in the back. (we certainly wouldn't). Build it and they will come? Does that apply in this situation? Also it seems that a lot of people with the self sufficient mindset are usually very busy advancing their own position? So one just cant put in 10 hours (one day) a week, without putting their own personal operation in jeopardy. Just rambling on here, maybe those are some reasons why some groups are failing to even get established in the first place?
Your primary focus has to be your family and all the people counted under that description. Each should definitely be encouraged to store and stage resources at or enroute to the buggout destination. If that's to be your location, perhaps a storage barn or shipping container set aside for the purpose. Unless you have the resources to carry everyone. What I consider family others would call a tribe, so applied terms will vary. The reliable neighbors I spoke of, in earlier posts, would resemble a mutual assistance network. I try to have a beer (or coffee) with my neighbors regularly and catch up on what's going on with them. They know if they need my help all they need to do is ask and vice-versa. If I'm on the porch drinking coffee, they'll come up, get a cup of coffee (or walk over with their own) and catch up on the goings-on. One of my neighbors will start mowing his lawn and just keep going down the road until he gets all of our yards. The rest of us try to get the next round. This is the kind of thing that makes dependable relationships. As much as regional MAGs would be great, this is the more realistic situation. But, each has to look to their own resources...
@Ian McFee absolutely, being neighborly is always good! Around these mountains we don't mow yards, or come over with a coffee, however we may even be more intentional, because we HAVE TO go out of our ways to make contact. Ironically we are in the heart of bug out locations... not too far away from resources, but abundance of natural resources and too far away from good work... around here we have all kinds of people, serious preppers, retired military, cattle farmers, cattle thieves, specialized workers etc. ... a truly great bunch of oddballs ... BUT none of them wants to bug out but yet would make a terrific member of a MAG 🤔😂😂😂...
This has been my experience trying to build my MAG in Southern NC. I am open to all people coming in as long as they meet one requirement. They have to have self discipline. And it's hard to find people who either don't just talk a good game or flat out ignore you should you want to meet up and discuss possibly bringing them into the group. Everyone talks a good game when it comes to team work until they are required to put effort and team work in. That's just my experience trying to find people though.
How do you quantify that?
@John Hart I do by that self discipline showing in a person's actions such as firearms discipline and having enough structure to say "hey I'm going to work on this stuff for the M.A.G. today". Which at that point in my mind discipline and dedication go hand in hand. Basically have enough self discipline to meet the expectations of the work everyone is doing for the M.A.G. and if not have the self discipline to take accountability and not make excuses for not getting work done.
@Psalm 144 I only asked because in some things I consider myself extremely self-disciplined and in others, not so much.
After reading the initial comments, I found myself asking if I would ever bugout and, if so, under what conditions. The answer is an unqualified “maybe.” If I determined that bugging out was a significantly better option than staying put, then I would definitely leave. However, there are qualifiers. I happen to believe that bugging out is a foolish concept for most people unless they have spent time and energy in planning and maybe even practicing the bugout experience. Since conditions on the ground can screw up any plan, nothing is for certain, but for myself, a good plan and pre-positioning of supplies would be paramount.
If your current location *IS* your BOL, I totally agree. Clearly, that's the best-case scenario. For many, however, that isn't an option, which is where the MAG concept really shines.
Definitely. In my case, I am the BOL. Family and tribe in the cities will come here as soon as their balloon goes up (the indicators are unique to their own standards). I have given them recommendations for caches and preps and it's up to them to implement them. The heat is on now, and as Angus aptly pointed out in yesterday's BDB, we have a clearer, more urgent understanding of the gravity of these needs. The rest is up to us to build working mutual relationships and hope to hell they work.
I agree with all the points as through all this I’m bugging in. I am and will go to my bugout homestead that I have planned and building. we took route 3 to there yesterday. What’s bothering Me is the relationships: at homestead I’ve meet a few people and they are very nice . But here they just suck And I’m about done with then. I gave a friend 50 lbs of meat to feed his family since they are out of work. this clown decides to talk crap about me to my wife. so that pissed us both off . I know turn the other cheek but it’s hard when u help others and they shit on you
I don't turn the other cheek. I address the situation straight forward so there's no mistake as to what has transpired. I also don't go in guns blazing. Approaching an issue, like you just mentioned, can be handled rationally and you may find that the tales weren't true or greatly exaggerated for whatever inane reasons people tend to conjure up to justify their ignorance. I came into the lounge, at work, to a co-worker expounding on an encounter I had been directly involved with involving an individual involved in a "serious predicament" and a supervisor with one extra co-worker hovering on the fringe (not fully aware of the events). The woman was explaining the situation to an audience of other co-worker as if she'd been present and "quoting" things allegedly said by me. I was not so cool with this. When I rounded the corner, I was behind her and challenged how she thought she new anyone's part in the situation as she was in another wing of the building at the time and this sensitive matter was being handled with extreme discretion. She admitted she was repeating what someone else (who wasn't anymore informed than she). She apologized later, but I had completely discredited her with the rest of the staff. We speak today and I would help her if she was in need, but her credibility in the community was destroyed. Sorry, that was a long winded way if saying that people make up crap when they feel on the outs and I've learned to take third party (or more) information with a generous helping of salt unless I go to the alleged source and get it straight. The rest is a crap shoot on good days. But, you can't hit the ball if you don't swing at it...just keep swinging, you're going to connect at some point.
I understand what you mean and see your points. No guns blazing or anything as it would be pointless. I have confronted this person in the past and they just back tracked and lied. In this case I think I need to just let that person go. My way forgive and forget . she showed me the texts of the conversations. the person even went so far as to criticize her for learning how to shoot and having her own guns. I’m proud of her and her training.
@Mel Gray you have the right idea. Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but it's up to them to drink it. You seem to have done everything to resolve this issue in a adult manner. If this person just wants to avoid it I would recommend letting that person go. If they are going to criticize your wife on learning how to shoot like that than you know what kind of person they are. Unfortunately people get off from putting others down. Having a situation like this ESPECIALLY in the context of a Bug Out of SHTF situation is 100% not ideal what so ever. You need people who will reciprocate the kindness and teamwork you show them to form a true cohesive bond within a M.A.G. type community (regardless how big or small). And unfortunately this person reciprocating the kindness you have shown. Just my two cents, but I don't have people who are like this in my life let alone when I try to recruit for my M.A.G. because it causes way to many problems.
@Psalm 144 well I wish I did not have people like that in my life that I have to deal with but it’s the nature of the beast around here. he was being considered to join ; I stress was. The interesting thing is if I were in the midwest, Texas or other place any MAG or group we take me and my wife any day because of our skill sets and the fact that we know we can do anything we put our mind too. Here in yuppie land haha. most don’t have a clue
I've had a terrible time finding a group. I run into the problem where people just want to bug in even thought they live in a big city or they are so new they have BOBs and nothing else. There's only been 2 I've met that are in good shape. One the wife wanted to let the ex-husband (and father to the child) come live with them as well as her unprepared family. They were no where close to having enough to take in 10 people and a bunch of children. When I talked with them about it they had no idea what they were going to do with them. Two, The couple was from Louisiana and our beliefs did not work out.
The only advice I can give you is the same as Bear. Get out as soon as you can or set up a location with a family member or good friend and store supplies on site with spider points along alternate routes. Then keep your shtf radar spun up...the faster you are than everyone else at catching the cues, the better off you'll be. Or even find 4 or 5 isolated acres with water and buy it if you can. My location is 40 wooded acres surrounded by big timber company land there's only one way in by vehicle and I've been working the area for a couple of years. The only way in other than the one road is a 5 KM hike that ends at a natural ravine that is my border on three sides. I patrol it regularly and have had to out some trespassers on the run even so. This is my fall back position. My plan is to stay home (rural) as long as I can, but have a plan in place.
Question do MAGs always have to bug out?
Example: Let's say a family of sorts (some friends included) is somewhat large and spread out but within 20-30 miles or 1-2 hours of one another save a few outliers. They along with a few friends act as a MAG/network helping one another but no formal bug out plan is established except coming to help when called.
Should this group be tighter and have more concise planning for xyz?
Is there a greater benefit to having a larger regional network in addition to MAG, tribe, team, QRF, etc?
I'm thinking concentric and overlapping circles.
Valid questions and points, indeed. IMO, "mutual assistance group" means physically in the same place so that I can render said assistance. If you're across town, I can't pull security for you. As Pastor Joe says "if you can't shoot a bad guy off their front porch, they're too far away" (paraphrasing and misquoting, I'm sure) I don't know how you pull that off without either a bug out or a planned community living together now.
To me, a loose affiliation is certainly better than nothing but I have plenty of loosely-affiliated friends that have zero of my trust. That feels more like a social network than a MAG.
Everyone chooses their own path.
Pulling this thread a bit more, if my MAG makes friends with another MAG 3 counties over, now we're on to something - and there's your concentric circles. We can train together, share ideas, even provide shelter for members in the other MAG if needed. But that has to start with my own crew first. Just thinking out loud.
@John Hart all good points. There's just no one close enough to us and dont really have any other options at this juncture. I have interest from people but we're not that close and you cant force people to pick up and move especially with families and the current economy etc. Just have to do the best we can with what we have, adapt. improvise. overcome.